By
Truman
Dunn
8/10/03
Your website is fascinating. You really cover the gamut.
Your reaction to the election of Gene Robinson is what interests me
for
us to talk about, perhaps. You said that regardless of whether
you
were for or opposed, that it was a "sad" day for a church
which has
contributed so much to Christianity over the centuries. I
would agree
with you that it is sad when any community experiences division,
even
splits. But we seem to view this only from the standpoint of
the
division itself and the break in unity. Even the Robinson supporters
want to downplay the possibility of broken unity.
I have a different take. I think, for example, of the
threatened
"walk-outs" I hear about in the Moravian church, or the
walk-outs at
the Board of World Mission. However, the way I view it, there are
some
churches in the ECUSA which believe that there is only one answer
and
only one biblical interpretation to the issue of homosexuality
issue,
and if THEIR interpretation is not honored as THE ONLY
interpretation
of the entire denomination, then they're leaving. On the other hand,
those who support Gene Robinson, for example, are not insisting that
all churches support Gene Robinson, but simply that they allow room
for
other interpretations of issues by faithful Christians--respecting
that, in the end, only God knows the truth beyond our
interpretations
of "God's Word."
The same seems to be the case in our own Moravian Church.
Those who
support Messiah Church and my ministry are not insisting that all
Moravian Churches must be like Messiah. I welcome the
diversity among
us, so that Christ the King Church ministers to many Christians who
experience Christ and understand the Scriptures in certain
ways--just
as Messiah ministers to Christians who might experience Christ and
understand the Scriptures in other ways. I believe we could have
more
"unity" if we weren't "insisting" that it is
"my way (or biblical
interpretation) or the highway."
Shalom,
Truman Dunn
By Reepicheep
8/10/03
I am growing quite tired of the Christian left touting
"Unity" as one
of the most (if not the most) important aspects of Christianity. In
fact, it appears that they consider unity to be a basic tenet of the
Faith. This
seems at best contradictory coming from Protestant denominations
that
are by their very definition, built on a foundation of schism.
Think about it. The Moravian denomination owes its very existence to
the leadership of John Hus, who declared that the Word was the
infallible standard by which all persons and institutions of the
church
(and yes, the Church itself) should be measured. I am absolutely
amazed
that individuals like Pastor Dunn (who posted here on August 7) can
make statements that are so blatantly contrary to the history of the
Moravian Church. In his very essence, John Hus was a "take the
'true'
way, or the highway" kind of person. He believed it so deeply
that he
died for it.
The bottom line is that Christianity is an "exclusive"
faith. You
cannot believe anything you want, and behave any way you wish, and
still be a Christian who will partake of eternal life. Our sinful
nature finds this repugnant and unacceptable. Unfortunately, many of
our Christian brothers and sisters have been tempted to believe
these
lies of the unmaker that we can have our cake and eat it too. I pray
for them and for the protection of any new Christians who have been
led
astray.
ybiC,
Reepicheep
By Truman
Dunn
8/11/03
I find the listings, postings, etc. not very user-friendly. I
identified myself openly, but folks seem to have pseudonyms, or
"handles" rather than actual names and identities.
I am responding to the unidentified letter finding it absolutely
amazing that people like "Pastor Dunn" can defy history,
etc., using
Hus as his example. Yes, Hus believed that the Word trumped the
teaching of the Church. That was the battle cry of the Reformation,
"
sola scriptura ." But, need I remind "Reepicheep"
that Hus was crying
out for the freedom of the individual to experience the Christ,
including himself, in ways that differed from the prevailing
teaching
of the established Church. Hus "challenged" the prevailing
orthodoxy,
just as the one he claimed to follow did.
Interestingly, my own desire to realize that no human statement,
even
declared "truth" by the church, can ever fully comprehend
or explain
the mystery of Christ (the Moravian Ground of the Unity ).
Moravians
have always understood the time-boundedness of all doctrine, while
affirming that Christ was always central. Christ, in the Moravian
Church is understood, primarily, as a relationship, which evolves.
Not
as a static doctrine which is to be protected and perpetuated;
hence,
the Moravian Church has always resisted having a doctrinal system of
its own.
As to liberals always clinging to the importance of
"unity".....as
Moravians, unity is, like it or not, crucial. It's in our name--Unitas
Fratrum. It's in our brief doctrinal document, The Ground of the
Unity
, etc. Unity does not mean there can be no dissent. Here, I
stand with
those who "challenge" prevailing orthodoxy on both sides
of the
spectrum. Unity, for me, means understanding that the best we can
ever
do is find ways to "love" one another, in spite of our
differences (the
spirit, I think, of the former Brotherly Agreement, now the Covenant
for Christian Living.)
Peace,
Truman Dunn
By Reepicheep
8/12/03
The more I read Br. Dunn's response to my last post, the less
I
understand what his point is. Regardless, my response to
his first
paragraph (regarding John Hus) is "yes, I agree with you,"
but Br.
Dunn failed to acknowledge my point that Hus created schism (as did
Martin Luther) and the church existing at the time was split.
Again,
I find it fundamentally contradictory to criticize those in
the ECUSA
(who see the foundation of their Denomination corrupted) about
their
expressed interest in leaving the ECUSA. For the same
reasons I am
dismayed by his similar remarks about "threatened
walk-outs" in the
Moravian Church. I invite Br. Dunn to be more clear.
I also agree that no human statement of truth can fully comprehend
the
mystery of our Lord Christ Jesus. This is exactly why God gave
us His
Word. When man and his/her institutions err, which God
could
certainly foresee, He gave us all that we need to check
ourselves
against... The Bible. In Br. Dunn's answer I hear an implied
denial of
the presence of The Spirit in scripture. So I ask Br.
Dunn, is the
Bible merely the creation of man, or is it inspired by the
Spirit to
convey God's Word to his people?
As for "unity" being crucial to being a Moravian, I
remain
unconvinced. Belief that Christ Jesus is the only path to
Salvation
is far more important.
In close, I would like to ask Br. Dunn what, if any, Christian
absolutes exist. Specifically, I mean to ask what
foundational
Christian beliefs he holds.
ybiC,
Reepicheep
Posted
12/08/2003 05:04 PM by Reepicheep (:)
By
Truman
Dunn
8/13/03
- Hus, unity, and the Word (cont.)
First of all, I would hope that my recent posting regarding the
frustration of having people want to dialogue but do it anonomyously.
If we're going to have the courage of our convictions, let's have
identities too, our true identities.
Also, it is confusing to have dialogue going on in different places,
being funneled here and there like air traffic control.
Anyway, in response to "reepicheep" not understanding what
my points
are, let me try to answer the questions. First, there is no doubt
that
Hus created a schism, and I would be the first to agree that
allowing
"freedom" and "latitude" in the way one
understands the gospel and the
Christ, has the risk of schism. In fact, I have written many times
in
public dialogues in The Hinge, which I used to edit, about the
Moravian
desire to have "unity" at all cost, which has sought to
eliminate
dissent before it even got started, for fear of disrupting the
"harmony" of the church. I am in no way opposed to
Episcopalians
choosing to leave the main body and even starting their own group.
In
fact, I see it as "inevitable" when there are differing
viewpoints or
beliefs, and one group sees its interpretation as "the
only" acceptable
interpretation. The same is true in the Moravian Church. We will
surely
break apart if we cannot find ways to accept each other despite our
differences (Covenant for Christian Living).
My point is mainly that those who are threatening to leave believe
that
there is only one way to believe--their way. In the case of Hus, he
chose to break away, because the established church was insisting
that
there was only one way--their way, a complete reversal of today's
potential schism.
No one has told any Moravian Church, for example, that they must
"bless, laud, and magnify" Messiah Moravian Church or
Truman Dunn.
Different congregations simply have different ways of expressing the
centrality of Christ and the authority of scripture.
As for scripture and its authority, no, I do not believe that the
Bible
is just a "human" creation. I truly believe it is
inspired. However,
even if I were a literalist and believed that every single word in
the
entire Bible is true, I still need to understand and interpret the
words on the pages. So, the Bible may be true, but our
interpretations
of the Bible, are just that--interpretations. For me, one of the
most
divisive actions in all of Christian faith is when an individual or
a
group claims that their interpretation is the ONLY right
interpretation. Also, the Bible is not an essential to faith, for
Moravians. It is a ministerial which, along with the church and the
sacraments help point us toward the essential, which is our
relationship with God. Zinzendorf mused about how retarded
children
could come to know the savior when they couldn't read and understand
the Bible. But he was convinced that, Bible or no Bible, such a
child
could come to know the savior and the love of God.
In my lectures I lamented that we have elevated "the
Bible" to the
point I believe it is idolotrous, much as Jesus rebuked the scribes
and
the Pharisees for their obsession with the scriptures and the proper
and only interepretation of them. And, in terms of the Moravian
Church,
Jesus being the only way to salvation has never, ever been an
essential
of the faith, and certainly has never been given the devotion that
Moravians have had to how we "love" one another as the
demonstration of
our faith. (Covenant for Christian Living).
Peace, love, and joy,
Truman Dunn
Posted 13/08/2003 03:30 PM by Truman Dunn (:)
By
Greg
Shumate
8/1303
- A bit about identity and idolotry
Pastor Dunn.
First let me first say that I agree with your point regarding the
tendency making Bible an idol. Fundamentalist Christians
practically
worship the Bible to the point where it becomes their salvation.
To
many, the Bible, rather than Christ, is the "Word of God."
However, we "liberal" Christians often take this too far
in the other
direction, disregarding the Bible where it has traditionally been
seen
as the source of God's wisdom and guidance.
As for hiding one's identity, please consider that this dialogue
might
not exist if not for that ability. Most folks would be glad to
reveal
themselves if actually in person, but since this is a public forum,
not
everyone is comfortable being so personal.
Peace and Prayers to you,
-Greg Shumate
PS, I have no clue who Reepicheep might be, other than a fellow
concerned Moravian!
Posted 13/08/2003 10:37 PM by Greg Shumate (:)
By
Reepicheep
8/13/03
- - Hus, unity, and the Word (cont.)
Truman, I am sorry if my use of a nom de plume puts you off. I
never
participate in any web discussions using my real name or my home
email
address. I am somewhat obsessive/compulsive about spam
programs that
pull this information from websites and discussion groups such as
these
and then fill my inbox with all manner of junk. Hence, I use
this
handle and email to do my posting. I appreciate the fact that
you are
willing to look beyond this annoying quirk of mine and continue our
discussion.
I do want to understand where you are coming from. No doubt,
you have
caused quite a stir here in the Southern Province and I have a
feeling
that few have taken the opportunity to ask you directly. So I
hope you
don't mind continuing to use this forum to that end. Maybe the
best
way I can understand is to tell you what I hear you saying, and
then,
hopefully, you will tell me what I have misunderstood.
What I am hearing is that you believe:
1- the only "Essential" in the Moravian Church is a
relationship with
God.
2- the Bible is a valuable tool, but it has been given too much
status
3- that Christ as the only path to Salvation has never been an
"essential" for the Moravian Church.
4- that even if every single word of the Bible were absolutely true,
that reading them off the page (interpretation) is flawed.
I must admit I find these statements offensive... but I want to
understand, so I am prepared to listen and set my offese off to the
side.
Point of clarification - You seem to be saying that we cannot ever
find
the "true Word" because we can only have another
interpretation of it
(Kinda like Descartes observation that we cannont experience
objective
reality... we can only have another "perception" of it).
But what is
there to interpret when the meaning of the words are plain on their
face? For example, "Thou shall not kill." What
interpretation could
come to any other conclusion than "Hey, the Bible just told me
that it
is wrong to kill?" Further, what do I do with
"homosexuality is an
abomination." What other interpretation can there be?
"I am the way,
the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through
me." I
don't think Jesus stuttered... the meaning is clear. What
other
interpretation could that verse have?
I have also had some of the same "musings" as Zinzendorf
if only
because I have an 8 month old son who is clearly incapable of making
any sort of profession that Christ is his Savior. But I don't
spend
anytime stressing about this. My son is part of our Covenant
Theology
and the condition of his soul is covered until such time that he
grows
and matures to the point where he can make that decision on his own.
Please forgive me for cutting this short, but bedtime awaits.
ybiC,
Reepicheep
Posted 13/08/2003 10:41 PM by Reepicheep
By
Truman
Dunn
8/14/03
- Hus, unity, and the Word (cont.)
Dear Reepicheep,
I do continue to be frustrated by "anonymous" dialogue,
but I will
respect your concerns and continue. My interest has always
been to
uncover what I believe have been the long held and deeply divided
beliefs in the Moravian Church, as well as in all Christianity.
We
Moravians hate disharmony or conflict, so we avoid it by not
admitting
we're divided, and we pretend we're all on the same page, and all
brothers and sisters in the Lord. That is why, despite the
stir my
"controversy" brought about in the Province, I believe
that it is a
good thing to have honest and open dialogue and try to find
"genuine"
unity, or at least the willingness to remain within the same
community.
I appreciate your willingness to try to "hear" me.
For the most part,
I think you did, as you repeated back what you "thought" I
tried to
say. I'm real keen on your paraphrasing my saying that the Bible had
too much status. That makes it sound like it shouldn't have
status in
the Church. Of course, the Bible is the most definitive
authority we
have for the life and teachings of Jesus whom we follow- so the
Bible
is vitally important to the faith of the Church. My point was
that its
status is SO elevated now, that it has become bibliolatry.
I also found it curious that you found my beliefs
"offensive." What is
that about? I am not offended by the beliefs of others, unless
those
beliefs directly are hurtful or harmful to me. I perceive one of the
problems in the Church today is that so many Christians have their
faith convictions all figured out and believe they are the RIGHT
ones,
and spend much time discussing and condemning the convictions of
others. Jesus seemed much more concerned with each person
nurturing
their own relationship with him and with God, than judging others.
If
we Christians spent more time dealing with the logs in our own eyes,
or
concerned about the "inside of the cup," rather than
pointing the
finger at the publican, or the sinner, or the heretic.....I believe
we
would do much to undo many of the barriers than keep Christians
among
the most divided of all groups in the human community.
As to the possibility of knowing "the Truth" or "the
True Word," I
would say that a "truth" in the Bible that seems plain on
its face to
you, speaks very differently to another. That is the power of
the Word
and the wisdom of the Bible. "Thou shall not kill,"
on its face, seems
plain as day, but depending on the translation, etc., a more
accurate
portrayl is "Thou shall not murder," which suggests that
there are
"types" of killing that are not "murder" which
might be acceptable.
This complicates, of course, issues such as abortion. We all are
"literalists" about the Bible. That is, we pick and
choose those
portions of the Bible that speak to us in our lives, and are
"literally
true" for us. For example, today many evangelicals (I
hate labels)
focus alot on homosexuality, when there are scant references to it
in
Leviticus and in the Epistles. Jesus says not a word about it.
Yet,
you would think it was the sin of sins. Jesus spoke
about the evils
of wealth many, many, many times in the gospels. Yet those who
clamour
for Bishop Robinson's resignation and condemnation drive to their
meetings to talk about leaving the Episcopal Church in their Volvos,
Hummers, and live in houses fit for kings in the days of Jesus. Why
don't we condemn the election of Bishops who are consciously
flaunting
the teachings of the Word about wealth.
As to the "essential" in the Moravian Church being our
relationship
with God, that was the earliest expression of the essentials dating
back to the days of Petr Chelchicky in Bohemia in the 15th century.
Over the years, various General Synods have added one or two here
and
there, etc. But, the Moravian Church no longer has any list of
"essentials." The approval of the Ground of the Unity in
1957, on the
500th anniversary of the Unitas Fratrum supplanted the so-called
unofficial list of essential beliefs.
Well, as you can see, I am willing to try to dialogue and I believe
that there are reasonable things to talk about if we are open to
each
other and not insisting on only one way to understand the mystery of
God in Christ.
Peace,
Truman Dunn
Posted 14/08/2003 04:15 PM by Truman Dunn (:)
By
Reepicheep
8/14/03
- - Hus, unity, and the Word (cont.)
I don't have time to respond to all of your points right now, but
you
are right, I need to clarify what I mean by "offensive."
Allow me to
explain that first. I am offended that you, as a Christian
Pastor,
appear to believe that Christ is not the only path to Salvation.
If
there was another way, why did God send his only son to die?
Since my
son was born last year, this point has really hit home for me.
If I
was placed in a situation where I was faced with a scenario where my
son would have to die, to save the life of, say, the rest of my
family,
I would search high and low for another way. Let's pretend
that I
could not find another way despite long hours/days of tearful
searching. The day came, my son died, and the rest of my
family were
saved. Then years later, a distant relative begins telling
everyone in
the family that there were several other ways that they could have
been
saved. I would be deeply offended and angry that one of those
saved
would be questioning my decision to let my son die. I would be
indignant that this relative would think, even for a nanosecond,
that I
had not explored every other possible course of action. I
think you
see the point I am about to make. If there was another way,
why did
Christ have to die? God is omniscient and all-powerful...
surely, if
there was another way, He would have found it! If the
Crucifixion and
the Resurrection were one of many ways to save mankind, what was the
point? If there are other paths to Salvation... why choose
Christianity at all?
ybiC,
Reepicheep
Posted 14/08/2003 04:56 PM by Reepicheep
- pseudonyms
By
Phillipa
8/14/03
Truman,
You must have a strong faith in mankind or more specifically, people
on
the internet. I considered using my full name, but didn't feel
comfortable enough to do it. If I ever run into you, I will
happily
identify myself. I disagree with some of your ideas about
Christianity, but I enjoy your input.
Phillipa
P.S. Reepicheep is the name of a character in C.S. Lewis's
Chronicles.
He is a very faithful and valiant mouse.
Posted 14/08/2003 08:29 PM by Phillipa
- The Door Swings Both Ways Mr. Dunn
By
Chuck
8/14/03
1 ) My point is mainly that those who are threatening to leave
believe
that there is only one way to believe--their way.
2 ) For me, one of the most divisive actions in all of Christian
faith
is when an individual or a group claims that their interpretation is
the ONLY right interpretation.
The two previous statements were copied and pasted directly from one
of
your discussions above. I just wanted to remind you that the
phrases
can also pertain to your beliefs and interpretations.
All who
disagree have a basic interpretation upon which they base their
arguments. Interpretations are not necessarily infallible.
Ultimately, no human knows the heart of God. We will all find
out when
God wants to reveal himself to us. I just wanted to remind you
that we
are all human, therefore mistakes are made by us all daily. I
can only
trust in God to reveal his true intentions through his chosen
methods.
I continue to pray that the unity of the Moravian Church will be
sustained by God's Spirit.
Posted 14/08/2003 10:14 PM by Chuck
By
Mr
Dunn
8/15/03
To Phillipa, Chuck, and the faithful and valiant mouse,
Now we're getting down to the nitty gritty. All the sweetness
and
"dialogue" is over. Now I'm beginning to feel the
trees stiffen and
the eyes bear down. To Chuck: Yes, the door does swing
both ways. I
would be the first to admit, indeed celebrate that "no human
knows the
heart of God." I have never, ever claimed that MY way was
the only way
to believe or understand the gospels or who Jesus is and was.
All I am
asking is that Christians who use scripture, or whatever other means
of
authority to insist that THEIR understanding is the ONLY acceptable
understanding, humbly recognize that no human knows the heart of
God.
The glimpses of God's heart in the scriptures are just
that....glimpses. That is why we need one another and to
listen to one
another and to learn from one another, as the words of wisdom in the
scriptures continue to be unveiled in their fullness. The
scriptures
were not completely "understood" when the creedal forms
and orthodoxy
were established by "the church." To Philippa:
I guess I am naive,
rather than have faith in humanity. And, the fact that you
"disagree"
with some of my ideas about Christianity is perfectly
understandable.
Uncomprehensible mysteries, such as God was in Christ, have created
many understandings since the days Jesus called the Twelve.
To Reepicheep: I want you to understand that my conviction
that there
may be "other pathways" to salvation, is merely a
recognition of the
imperfection of any human understanding of the mind and the heart of
God. I simply believe that God is greater than our ability to
conceive, perceive, or comprehend. In my lectures I simply
called for
Christians, beginning with Moravians, to "let go" of the
"necessity" of
insisting that our pathway is superior. It is simply our
pathway,
brought to us by where we were born, who are parents were/are, etc.
If
I were born in Jakarta, I would most likely be Islamic, and I
believe
it is God's realm, not mine, to be in the business of deciding who
will
be saved. The PEC, bishops and I found that we had
"common ground" in
that I can affirm that, wherever God is saving in the world, it is
through the love of Christ and the redemptive act of his sacrifice.
I
simply have no interest or need to "rank" the world
religions and have
Christianity in "first place" on the charts. I like
Paul's admonition
to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
I believe far too many Christians worry about the
"publican" rather
than seeing the log in their own eye. No wonder Christianity
is one of
the most hateful, divisive human communities--- with one another,
and
toward the "gentile" world.
Mr. Dunn
Posted 15/08/2003 10:42 AM by Mr. Dunn, as others seem to call me, I
guess respectfully? (:)
By
SJP
8/15/03
Mr. Dunn,
Since God knows our human limitations, why would he give us a way to
eternal life but then make it somehow mysterious, obtuse, or unclear
as
to how we would find that very salvation?
God did not intend for our salvation to be complicated or difficult
to
understand. He spoke in very simple words. From John
14:6, "I am the
Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through
me". And in Acts 4:12, "Salvation is found in no one else
for there is
no other name in heaven given to men by which we must be
saved." From
Romans 10:9,"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus
is Lord," and
believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be
saved." We are asked to simply believe in Jesus
Christ with a
childlike faith and then we will live forever with Him. Please
do not
let anyone deceive you into believing differently.
I would like to share some words written by a dear friend and a
faithful servant of the LORD:
"We learn as much from what Jesus did not say as what He said.
He did
not say, "I know the way" or "There are many
ways" or "Do these things
and you will find the way." Jesus said, "I am the
way....no one comes
to the Father except through me."
It's not meant to be rocket science, Mr. Dunn. I beg you to
please
quit teaching and preaching something different than the simple
truth
of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When I read 2 Timothy 3, I
realize that
this kind of teaching should not take me by surprise. And I
certainly
would expect this sort of teaching from a Unitarian Universalist.
What
surprises me is that these words are actually coming from a pastor
in
my own denomination.
When I read 2 Peter 2, I pray fervently for you Mr. Dunn.
Don't deny
the One who bought you.
Posted 15/08/2003 03:21 PM by SJP (:)
By
Mr.
Dunn
8/15/03
- Thanks, it was an experience!
Well, the last entry by "sjp" was enough. As I've
said for so long in
my years in the Moravian Church, I am very willing to celebrate and
stand hand in hand with fellow Moravians, fellow Christians, and
fellow
human beings. However, no matter how many times I try, those
with whom
I try to stand together who are convinced that they know the truth,
and
that it is plain as day, not rocket science, always eventually get
to
the place where they are "praying for me" and have all
kinds of
righteous condemnations and admonitions. My friends tell me
I'm silly
and crazy for tying to dialogue with such folks, but somehow I keep
thinking the spirit might bring us together. Yet, each time I
experience this self-righteous, condescending attitude, a little bit
of
that hope is chipped away. I enjoyed it folks, but enough is
enough.
Maybe I need to study with a rocket scientist.
Mr. Dunn
Posted 15/08/2003 04:13 PM by Mr. Dunn (:)
