Comments for Moravian Forum

Comment on Fraudulent and Deceptive Mailing by Rev John Jackman

Rev John Jackman — Mon, 17 May 2010 14:51:54 +0000

The same comment was posted the next day on UNITAS and has an ongoing discussion.

I did not want to post such a comment on a broader venue such as a Facebook discussion where most people would have no idea what it was about but it would leave a broad negative impression of the Moravian church.

Since Moravians.org is something of an identified central locus for those opposed to the Episcopal agreement, I felt the comment ought to be posted here.

I am afraid that I do not currently have the leisure to engage in a lengthy discussion about your document, and I do not want to offer a glib “first impression” comment without followup.

It may be that later this summer I can. Right now my travel schedule and deadlines related to the release of WESLEY are intimidating.

Comment on Fraudulent and Deceptive Mailing by Lee

Lee — Mon, 17 May 2010 13:13:56 +0000

Thank you for the clarification. Could I ask for one more thing? The fact you chose our website for your post rather than the Unitas site has some concerned you were targeting the study Group’s Work.
Frankly the time-consuming effort and work to offer a legitimate well researched response to Full Communion has not created nearly the interest that this fraudulent letter has. Would you be the first Church leader to recognize our work as a legitimate communication, recommend delegates should read it and offer any comments to us regarding any errors you find in it?

Thanks

Comment on Fraudulent and Deceptive Mailing by Rev John Jackman

Rev John Jackman — Mon, 17 May 2010 01:33:15 +0000

Lee — My apologies, I did not understand anything in your email requested further confirmation or information. As I stated in my post, I was upset about the letter itself and the deceptive nature. I did not address the Full Communion Proposal itself really at all.

I also did not suggest that anyone on your study group was behind the letter, nor would I suggest that. I do not know who sent the letter. But we have had in the past other anonymous and deceptive mailings received by churches or sent directly to Vice-Chair of Elders.

The issue for me is how to deal with and communicate with one another. I believe in open and honest communication. For a long time (maybe this is no longer true) I was the only Moravian pastor who posted on this forum openly with full signature. I will continue to do so. I have often worked for more open communication and discussion.

My only effort in posting here and on UNITAS and to other email contacts was to put the word out about this letter, and (I would hope) put the sender on notice that such tactics are both unacceptable, and as you have pointed out, counterproductive.

Thanks,

Rev John Jackman
Pastor
Trinity Moravian Church

Comment on Fraudulent and Deceptive Mailing by Lee

Lee — Sun, 16 May 2010 21:59:58 +0000

John this is all very disturbing to me. I was finally able to get a copy of the letter your are referencing. The writer of the letter is obviously very disturbed. I will not even begin to try and understand why someone would go to the time and expense of mailing a letter without a signature on what obviously is fictitious leader head from the President of the PEC.

A signed letter from the author obviously would have been much more effective. Anyone who has had any experience with the PEC (especially ministers) would realize they would never send a request like that.

This may raise an even more important question that should be considered here. What avenues are available for Moravians to communicate with each other? Do Moravians know how to share their ideas and will there be gatekeepers that determine what information gets shared? I believe the Task force on reorganization identified open communication as a vital component in building a healthy denomination.

I understand that when the letter arrived there must have been at least a few ministers that compared the return addresses on the envelopes to find they were different. Apparently the office of the PEC then notified all ministers by email of the fraudulent email. It is reasonable to expect that all happened pretty quickly. Maybe that should have been the end of it.

Your postings on the Forum are always welcome as is anyone’s who wants to discuss concerns in the Moravian Church. While informative and appropriately news worthy it did raise questions as to motive and tone of the posting.

Rather than acting as a gatekeeper and removing the post I chose to leave it posted and tried to contact you for more information. My email to you was sent on May 14 th:

Hi John,

I am deeply disturbed by the letter you have described. It is extremely unfortunate that someone has chosen such a devious unethical and dishonest way to express his or her opinion.

What is extremely troubling is that this may seem to point to those of us who have put a lot of work into providing a biblical and historical view of this proposed agreement that differs from that of the proposal.

From what I hear the letter is so obviously doctored and manufactured that no one could take it seriously. The problem is those who would wish to discredit our Study Group’s Work will use it to do exactly that.

I would hope that you of all people could look at the quality of the work our group has done on our documents and the Study Group’s web Site and realize such a letter is inconsistent with our work both in content and in the way it was presented.

I would invite you and anyone who would like to meet with our Study Group and discuss our work to contact us. We would like to be able to explain our findings and our concerns.

I appreciate your willingness to bring this to light and would hope you agree that this is not consistent with our efforts and will express that to those you have an opportunity to share this with.

Lee

I will follow this comment with a posting of the letter and would appreciate your confirming that it is the same one you received.

Comment on Fraudulent and Deceptive Mailing by Christine

Christine — Fri, 14 May 2010 17:27:10 +0000

I agree that deceitful mail is fraudulent and annoying; a waste of time. While not privy to the item itself, it sounds like the author of the mailing has, in fact, misunderstood the reasons that the Full Communion Proposal with the Episcopal Church USA is the wrong agreement for the wrong reasons for the Moravian Church Southern Province. The issue is NOT the homosexual beliefs and practices of the clergy of the Episcopal Church. Rather the issues are the beliefs and practices that deny that Jesus Christ is the only way to Salvation, the focus on social justice and good works, as opposed to preaching and spreading the Gospel of Christ. I would like to discover the author of the letter you received, just so I could point out the more salient reasons that the Full Communion Proposal should receive a NO Vote at Synod.
I will trust that the homosexuality issue does not disguise the very Biblical reasons that Moravians should not be in Full Communion with the Episcopal Church. Any meaningful dialogue that should take place regarding the Full Communion Proposal will only be derailed if the focus is on “sexual immorality”.
I was a participant in a study group on the Full Communion Proposal. This group recognized very early in our months of study that this was not the area of concern. As you can see in our reports online, “A response to the Proposal for Full Communion ” and more recently “Wait on the Lord “, sexual immorality is nowhere to be found. In fact it has been our prayer that the proponents of this issue would not use this fallacy as a “straw man argument”. We knew that proponents and supporters of the Full Communion Proposal have used issues like sexuality to effectively deflect the debate away from creditable work, sound doctrine and Biblically based concerns.

Comment on Prayer Makes History But Has it Been Lost, Filed Away, Forgotten by Moravians: Count Zinzendorf by Steph

Steph — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 03:49:11 +0000

Thank you for writing this…. If only the world would be covered with this Christianity as the waters cover the sea!!!!

Keep burning for the Lamb!

Comment on Moravian Church on Health Care Reform by scepanskijc

scepanskijc — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:09:27 +0000

In my opinion, the ideal of health care should be universal care paid for by a single payer. I.e., Medicare for all would fit the bill. John

Comment on Faith based Neighborhood Partnerships by phb

phb — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:02:48 +0000

No, the government should not require separate incorporation. The government needs the help of the Churches and if people need help enough I doubt it will be minded where the help comes from. I do not believe that all the people who receive help from our Moravian Missions are christians. Most importantly, we do not deny our risen Lord for our government. If the government does not want our help unless we turn our Lord out, then so be it.

Comment on Denominational liberals have departed from the Holy Bible, the Word of our Lord. by Christine

Christine — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:41:56 +0000

Jesus wants all of us in His church and all of us are sinners.
Liberal denominational leaders have linked the inclusion of the sinner into the church with the condoning of the sin; to the point of accepting and embracing the sin.
Having faith and coming to Christ through faith requires a repentence, a change from our old ways.
The false teaching of liberal leaders is leading people to think that they can keep the old sinful ways and never repent.

Comment on SEPARATION by scepanskijc

scepanskijc — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 00:28:23 +0000

I think Tommy has touched on something important here. We are to be in the world but not of it. We are the salt and the light.

Separation, however, does not mean moving out into the country and building a wall. Jesus wants us to be engaged, not reclusive. It is a big responsibility. It is also dangerous to mingle with the forces of evil, in order to change them (or defeat them) without allowing them to change (or defeat) us. John